"War is the Most Extreme Luxury"
Quakers: The Voice of Ham Sok-HonReporter: Han Young Sang
1984Teacher Ham Sok-Hon is often called a Korean prophet or a voice in the desert. His prophecies are not for the future but what he believes to be the will, of God. He is like John the Baptist who dies shouting for righteousness. Over his eighty-three years he has managed to keep to one path giving helpful advice to the Korean people. He continues to speak once or twice daily and plans to continue until he breathes his last. He says, "There is nothing I hope to spare." Born of a Christian family, a Presbyterian and once a non-churchist, he is now a member of the Seoul Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). He is fascinated with Laotse, Chuangtse and other Oriental philosophies as well as the Bible but he has reached the stage where he feels that all religions can be integrated into one.
Teacher Ham insists that all social, political and economic problems, both national and international can be solved if the power of religious truth is applied. He believes that life only becomes meaningful when it is open to these truths. The purpose in life is to find unity in the midst of diversity. Teacher Han was born at Yongchon, Pyengabn Pukto Province in 1901. He graduated from Tokyo Teacher's College, majoring in history. He has teen a religious philosopher and writer all of his life. Except far a period of 10 years as a teacher at the Ohsan Middle School he has held no professional position. Ohsan has often been called the cradle of the independence movement for liberation of Korea from Japan. He lives at 81-78 Sangmoon 2-dong, Tohpong-ku 130, Seoul, Korea. He receives many visitors. On the day we met to discuss this interview, he spoke for three hours at two universities and shared his time with me from 3 pm to 5 pm.
His erect posture, clear strong voice, and systematic speech gave evidence of an 82-year-old, in the prime of life. After the interview while walking through his flower garden, he said, 'How happy I should be, if I could only grow flowers at here alone and quietly."
Question:
Now that I am with you, Teacher Ham, I have much to ask bit I will limit my questions to religious issues. Teacher Ham, you are familiar to us as a Christian, but you give us the impression that you have transcended Christianity. You are also known to us as a non-churchist, but I hear that you are no longer. Did we misunderstand, are you a non-churchist?
Answer:
Yes, you did. I used to be a non-churchist. I was, while in Japan association for a time with the non-church movement and greatly influenced by it but I could not accept all of the creed of the non-church movement.
Question:
You are a Quaker. May I ask if you find similar characteristics between Quakerism and the non-church movement?
Answer:
Quakers have no dogma nor established hierarchy. Some structure is essential but Quakers try to limit it as much as possible.
Question:
Do you think that the early meaning and spirit of Christianity has lost its effectiveness?
Answer:
Yes, I think it may have. However, many individuals have not. The Quakers have been more successful than most in retaining what has been described a "primitive Christianity. They are very liberal in their theology. A few wonder if they can rightly be called Christians. They hesitate to say that the religious thought of others is right or wrong.
Question:
I know that the Quaker Church is one of the smallest there is. Why are you interested in Quakerism?
Answer:
Just after the Korean War in 1953, the British Friends Service Council and the American Friends Service Committee helped with the work of rehabilitation of our country. While helping to reconstruct a hospital destroyed during war in Kunsan, they organized a work camp in which several Korean youth participated. This was the first project administered by the Quakers in Korea. Some young Quakers were participants in the work camp as well. I met the Quaker participants and was impressed with their beliefs.
Because of this I became interested in Quakerism and later became a Quaker. I was privileged to visit America in 1962.
Question:
While I understand that the Quakers have neither creed nor hierarchy, cant that in itself be a kind of creed. Is there a church or worship program?
Answer:
Quakers prefer to pray without a formal program but you can appreciate the necessity of sane structure. We prefer to describe our place of worship as simply, our meeting house rather than our church. There is no minister, priest or hierarchy. There is no pulpit, no formal seating. Each person sits and meditates in silence.
Question:
Without preaching, is it possible to teach about and learn of God's gospel?
Answer:
We study the Bible following the period of worship. During our silent worship, those who are so moved, mar pray, sing hyrnns, read the Bible, give a message which grows out of the meditation. Anyone present is free to speak during the Meeting for Worship.
Question:
Quakers appear to have a very liberal interpretation of theology, compared to other Christian denominations. Is that true?
Answer:
Yes, that is true.
Question:
I hear that the Women's Rights Movement was first introduced by the Quakers and that other progressive movements have been started by them. Is that true?
Answer:
The movement for the equality of men and women and freedom for slaves were first triggered by the Quakers. The Quakers who were often imprisoned and mistreated because of their religious beliefs insisted chat the condition of the jails should be improved and that those who were stricken with mental illness be treated humanely and with dignity. When these efforts resulted in awakening public opinion in their communities and conditions changed for the better, they did not expect recognition for it.
Question:
Do the Quakers have strong position with regard to peace and against war as an instrument of policy?
Answer:
The number of Quakers is not large but they have been best known for their so-called 'peace testimony'. Recognizing the increasing destructiveness of the institution of war, the Quakers during the First and Second War placed major emphasis on building the institutions of peace. For example, Quakers sent gifts of medicine to those civilians who were injured because of war in the enemy countries. Such gifts were sent to Russia and to North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. This was done even though the U.S. Government prohibited. However, because of their religious beliefs they wished to try to demonstrate that they believed the so-called enemies were children of God as well.
Question:
Aren't strife, dispute and even war defended by most as necessar7 in bringing about a peaceful world? For example, as Jesus Christ said, "I cane not to send peace, but a sword. The concept of peace can be exp1ained in many wars. Would you comment on this?
Answer:
"I came not to send peace, but a sword" doesn't mean what is called war in our understanding of the word. It means disputation of ideas not the use of weapons. Jesus was primarily a peacemaker. If we understand the Bible correctly, it is clear that violence was not suggested. Failing to treat the problem of war correctly, the Catholics and the Protestants may tacitly approve war policies. This is wrong for a practicing Christian. Other means than war and violence must be found for the settlement of disputes.
Question:
Quakers reject holding a gun, don't they?
Answer:
Some object to being required to take military training and to do military service. I was surprised to hear that this was so. But Western people are more imaginative than we are in thinking of alternative ways of assisting one's country. Some served in the medical Corp. Others served in mental hospitals. Other Quakers have insisted that they should not be conscripted for any service believing that the best my to be of service can not be accomplished where force is required. Some Friends have chosen prison terms rather than being required to train to kill one's fellow man.
Question:
How would describe Quaker theology? Is it different than the traditional view of the Divine?
Answer:
We refer to God as other Christians do. We needn't emphasize that our belief in God is Monotheistic. Quakers are less interested in theological debate than most denominations. There are divisions within Quakerism. Some believe in the trinity, others are unitarian in their belief. Quakerism is a Christian sect, originating in the West has a close relationship to some Oriental people's philosophies. No one has clearly established the similarities and differences.
One Historian has asked, "Where does Quakerism come from?" Before the Reformation, religionists who we would call "mystics" traveled to England from Europe. They may have been the first "Quakers" if we are searching for the origin of the mystical sects of Quakerism. European mystics differ from those who believe in faith healing in Korea. It was amongst the farmers of Northwest England where Quakerism as we know it began. The Church of England was extremely corrupt at the time. Opposition arose and protests were made. Beside the Quakers there were many small groups who were called "seekers." They ware all asking the question, "could this be religion?" They met in small groups in their homes. They searched for Truth. This was the beginning of Quakerism. As they tried to live up to what they believed to be Truth, they seem to have been strongly moved spiritually. George Fox, the founder of Quakerism, was one of these seekers. He had new insights into religion and had great leadership qualities. The other small groups who were protesting the condition of the Church of England gradually disappeared. Quakers gradually overcame the violent resistance to their movement. They had experienced many years of imprisonment and persecution for their beliefs.
Question:
Might we call George Fox the founder of Quakerism?
Answer:
Yes, but he was not the first to protest the doctrines of the Church of England. The protest developed naturally among the farmers who were usually uneducated people. George Fox worked as an apprentice to a shoemaker. He was honest, sincere and a young man of merit. He was uneasy about the corruption of the Church of England. Ho sought the advice of theologians but nothing he heard seemed to satisfy. Finally when he was discouraged and low in spirit, he realized that no one but Christ Jesus could speak to his condition.
Question:
George Fox's realization of truth through meditation is similar to that of Buddha in realizing Truth, isn't it? So far as I am aware, some Christians are now suggesting that they should dialogue with other religions. There appear to be theologians who insist that God reveals his truth through Laotse, Chuangtse and Buddhism. How about this, Teacher Ham?
Answer:
Yes, I believe that. I have believed that since reading Tagore and Gandhi.
Question:
Have you found this through Quakerism?
Answer:
Before I became a Quaker, reading Tagore gave me a more universal viewpoint. To the present, I have not considered myself a Universalist but more recently, I have openly said that I'm not involved in any special religion, but have clearly said that I an on the side of universalists. I don't believe that can be only be found through Christianity. Many insist that their own religion is the source of absolute truth. I don't accept this because Truth is not expressed to any one person or organization absolutely. Is it possible that great religious truths can be contradictory'? I don't think so. Many people have different views on this but this is my view. I intentionally mentioned Laotse and Chuangtse as often as I can. Our history is one of suffering. Because of our history, I have mentioned Laotse and Chuangtse. When I became a non-churchist, being influenced by Uchimura, the Japanese non-churchist, I had some difficulty with his theology. He maintained that Oriental philosophy could be of no help. I am not sure that he maintained an absolute position on this but his assertions were to that effect.
Question:
Do you believe that Laotse and Chuangtse have the same truth as does Christianity?
Answer:
Most believers seem to think that their religion presents the absolute truth. I don't think of Laotse and Chuagcse as representing the absolute truth. My interest in Laotse and Chuangtse dates back to the pre-World War period. The Second World War was approaching, I believed that life as we knew it would be fundamentally changed by the end of the war. National boundaries would change as would life styles and social structures. How could these changes take place? What would be the role of religion in these changes? Could religion conceivably provide the required leadership which lay ahead? The Communists would claim that religion could not adjust to these changes because of the Church's conservatism. If the Communists turned out to be right, I would not be able to believe in religion as a leading force in society. To me religion must be adaptable to new and changing conditions.
While in my forties, I decided that religion could not be so adapt. I came to this conclusion because the Christianity in which I believed had been politicized. Being compromised through this connection I did not believe that religion could fulfill its original purpose. The growth of Statism was another major factor to be contended with at that time. Supreme statism developed out of the Second World War, that is to say, the near total dominance of the State by the central government authority. The ancient state was not dominate and all powerful. As industry developed, agricultural workers became fewer and reliance on slavery developed. In order to provide slaves, central authoritarian government appeared. Centralized government authority made possible imperialism. Imperialism was an important cause for the First and Second World Wars. I predict that if statism continues war cannot be avoided. Once war breaks out, even the seed of life will be exterminated.
What can we do in order to save this world? The answer to this question is to change the nature of the State. We should crush the idea that people exist for the benefit of the State. I strongly believe and press the point at every opportunity that it is necessary to study Oriental philosophies in search of the answers. Western philosophy and thought grew out of the Reformation. England and Europe were greatly influenced by the Renaissance. There were, so to say, three reformations: the Renaissance, the Religious Reformation and the Industrial Revolution. Still another reformation lies ahead. New theories and approaches are essential. Western Classics have heavily influenced the past. We can't rely on Aristotle and Plato in the future. But we do have the Oriental Classics which have been handed down for thousands of years. Western people say that no religious philosophy exists in the Orient. I repeat what I have said earlier, we must search the Eastern Classics for answers. I have not studied Chinese philosophy in a Chinese Classic institute but have studied it for myself. My study though is not academic or scholarly but I have lectured on Laotse and Chuangtse often over recent years. They are considerably better known as a result.
Question:
I know that Christian theologians have strongly emphasized social and historic salvation. Hearing your assertion, is there any hope or expectationof that?
Answer:
Christianity is quite backward and behind the times. What ignorant Ministers there are! Alas!
Quest ion:
You seem to express the belief that most Ministers are to conservative but on the other hand you say that you are thought to be a liberal and a universalist. Do you think that Salvation for Christians is similar to being free from worldly bonds for Buddhists?
Answer:
As I'm not a specialist in theology, I will not try to respond as a theologian. Although different names are used, their final meaning is the same. Christianity is a Semitic religion. 'The Jews and early Christians have lived on The Arabian Peninsula since Old Testament times. They were influenced by the surrounding of the Deserts but they were very practical and behaviorist. On the other hand, the natural scenery of India is amazing. The early Buddhists began their religion through meditation. While the Indian religions originally appear to have been similar, they later developed in different ways. Christians have always placed emphasis on the problem of sin. They could thereby work cut their own salvation. Theological expressions amongst the different religions are different but what most of us pursue as human beings are similar. Such is my belief expressed in my style. Irrespective of what theologians may think, I don't believe that the real differences are sufficient to cause conflict. Perhaps the God of Christianity is the Tao of Laotse and Chuangtse. If we analyze this conceptually, there may be differences. But those who believe in a true faith, will regard it as the same in the end.
Question:
I am not a student of Buddhism so I hesitate to ask this qustion. It is usually said that Buddhists have no interest in the matter of justice. Is that true?
Answer:
Dr. Kin Dong Kil once mentioned it in that way and was sharply criticized by the Buddhists. If we look into it carefully we would, in my opinion find that it is not true.
Question:
You seem to have an integrated view of what happens after death. Don't you?
Answer:
After death? I don't believe it. Our only aim is to reach a permanent and limitless end. Christianity believes the resurrection of the body has happened after death. According to the Bible the body Jesus Christ was resurrected. Our search should be for a spirit which lives on after death although the physical body dies. The religious dimension is different from the scientific one. We should not confuse the former with the latter. We find it confusing for such a dispute to take place. They have little understanding of the issues. They believe that to be resurrected is to have the body live again after it dies. Some think that if the body is cremated resurrection after death would not be possible. When I was young this worried me. I resolved the problem to my satisfaction as follows: A life of the Spirit which is eternal transcending materialism, replaces the life of the physical body.
Our life on earth is the life of the physical body. We haven't while on earth overcome the world of materialism as yet. Some through faith and effort can cone near the life of the Spirit but none of us can reach the ultimate of the Spirit world that exists after death. No one can ignore the spiritual world even though one hasn't experienced it himself. Some may insist on scientific experimentation to prove or disapprove that she spiritual world exists. Physical life can be shown by scientific methods but the spiritual life can only be realized through meditation. Some scientists sacrifice themselves for scientific truth. Many of us are blind to the truth because it is different from what: we believe. Religious truth is illustrative. The more we study and think about the spiritual world, the nearer we can come to experiencing it. This is the normal nut-suit of religion. We should not bind our God to such a fixed idea as ancient people used to believe. I no longer have a problem for myself concerning the meaning of the world of the Spirit. I have solved it to my satisfaction.
Question:
Is it your belief that the spiritual world is neither the prolongation of the present world nor the pursuit of a luxurious life after death?
Answer:
Question:No, it's not whether we live in the Kingdom of God after death but that our soul ascends into the world of the Spirit. Unfortunately most Koreans have greater respect for their creeds and dogmas than for what they are capable of experiencing. They pray for their own happiness and welfare. It's a religion without roots. It's evidence that they have not cast off shamanism. Who is to be blamed for this problem? The clergy are to blame. The clergy are very ignorant themselves. Moreover, they fail even to try to comprehend the world of the soul. They continue to worry about how they can live on without dying. It is difficult to know how to help the Korean Church. I am much worried about it. There is no way to solve the social problems of Korea without the help of the Christians. They are as corrupt as they can be! Little did I realize how corrupted they are and how ignorant they are! It's a serious problem. Whether or not we can overcome this dark world is a difficult question.
Teacher Ham, you place much emphasis on meditation. Are there basic methods and postures for meditation in Quaker worship?
Answer:
There is no specific way. A few Quakers discuss it. Oriental religions have meditation in common. It is best for us to keep the basic posture. It's why we can't overlook our body, however hard we may try to live a spiritual life. Life must follow the physical body irrespective of how close one comes to the life of the Spirit. For example, we know that we can't continue with spiritual activities without eating and sleeping. We can't ignore these basic facts. It is a delusion to think that even though our faith be strong, we can over-come everything without limit. It may be possible for a short time but not for long. Posture is very important. Take Westerners for example. Many Western manners are rather unpleasant to us. While visiting the Union Theological Seminary in New York City. I met a theologian coming from a class. We met and talked for a while. Placing his feet on the table, he tilted back. I accepted it without comment but I felt as if I should excuse myself and end the conversation. When I entered the classroom to give a lecture, a student brought in a pet puppy which wandered here and there around the room. Western people may think nothing of this but Eastern people consider basic manners very important. At least when beginners train for the basic posture, they keep their backbone very straight. Sometimes students are reminded of the basic posture. Of course it's not compulsory but it is true that we can't ignore for physical health on for spiritual matters, the importance of a correct posture. Physiology and psychology support this.
Question:
Recently we have found that the books of such Indian philosophers as Krishnamurti sell well in our bookstores. Is there a close relationship between the Indian philosophers and other Oriental thinkers?
Answer:
I've not read their books. If however, we read such Indian religious songs as the Bhagavad Gita, we can learn a good bit. There is a legend that Laotse learned to meditate from India. It's difficult to believe. The question is as to how our original religion related to Taoism. I am sure that Yi Hung Hwa's theory is reasonable. I used to specialize in history, but I study it no longer. China, north of Peking, used to belong to the country, In Dynasty. Recently the relations between the In dynasty and the Korean ethnic groups have frequently been discussed. I am very interested in the Kihjah dynasty of Korea, but I question if the Chinese Kihjah were actually in Pyong Yang. Most legends are not completely fabricated. Believing that it must have bee' grounded on something, I drew some conclusions. Between Northern China and Yotong there was no border. Many Koreans must have scattered into the area. The evidence from which to draw this conclusion is that there are many places whose names are called 'Kouri' in the area of Peking such as "Kouri Village" and "Kouri Market," probably derived from "Kokuryeo." Korean and In culture must have become mixed as a result. History indicates that there were primitive religions in the In civilization. One of than remains, Shamanism called Muhdang, has not reached the level off a religion, but much folklore has developed from it. During the era of Kokuryeo, there were such terms as "Hyenin of Wish Man," "Sonpi" of sage and "Dohryaong," all Korean and not Chinese. The term "Dohryeong" was the name for a religious man. "Dohryeong" should not be equated with a person trained in religion today. It was a very primitive religion which no longer exists. It may have had something in common with Chuangtse. Yi Hung Hwa explained this having borrowed from Cheo Chiwon's saying, "There was an early mysterious religion in our country which was related to three religions: Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism. Cheo Chi Won had been in China, and had a very broad knowledge. He would have had the necessary background knowledge to be able to say this. Taoism is based on the principle of peace making. Such is the thought: of "Sonpi" in our country. We should be aware of the mythological story of Tankun, in which there was no mention of war, indicating that our people were peace makers. All ancient mythological stories of the founders of countries relate to a hero's battle. Through our failure to develop our country correctly, we have been under the rule of other countries for most of our existence.
Question:
Is it possible that the reason we have been dominated by others is because we have been peace makers and have avoided war? If, while we were controlled by other countries we had resisted more strongly, would our situation have been different?
Answer:
Korea and Koreans were not overrun and conquered by other nations because we were peacemakers but because we had neither the will nor the courage to resist their control and domination
Question:
The Nirvana of Buddhism, the emptification of mind in Taoism and "Blessed are the poor in Spirit" seem very similar, aren't they?
Answer:
I think so. Laotse emphasized emptification of mind. Emptification and calmness can be realized through meditation. Laotse emphasized meditation because the life of the Spirit cannot be realized through material power. It is said that Quakers meditate in order to feel God's presence. Their meditation is different from Oriental meditation. Theirs is not individual but corporate. When they meditate in small or large groups, they believe that God is present amongst them. The oriental style of meditation :s a personal Zen, even though a group of ten people meditate together.
Question:
There are many things that I don't understand about Quakerism. Do the Quakers quake as the tern implies? A Mudang quakes when she is obsessed. There are some Christians who quake and cry when they pray in the Korean Churches. The term "Quaker" reminds me of these people, should it?
Answer:
In the early days of Quakerism, most Quakers were humble farmers and country people who responded emotionally and with religious fervor when they felt moved by God to pray or speak. The title "Quakers" was first used as a term of contempt. The Quakers were thought to be eccentric.
Question:
Are there Quaker theological Seminaries?
Answer:
Since there is no creed nor dogma, there is no need for a seminary.
Question:
Well then, how is Quakerism handed down?
Answer:
Business matters of the Society of Friends are managed primarily fin a Meeting for Business held each month. There is a Quarter1y Meeting to which the Monthly Meetings send representatives and a Yearly Meeting as well. These Meetings oversee the management of all church affairs. There is a series of "Advises and Queries" which serve as a guide for the Meeting and for the Members. It is the nearest thing there is to a creed. A unique characteristic of the Quaker Business Meeting is that all matters of business are dealt with on the basis of reaching a unanimous decision rather than by majority vote. One person's opinion is believed to be important and not to be ignored. While this method night appear to be difficult it has proven to be effective for over 300 years.
Question:
How many Quakers are there?
Answer:
Anyone who comes is welcome. They are called attenders. If they wish to become members after attending for a while, they may do so by decision of the Monthly Meeting. Once a person becomes a member, a significant obligation to the Meeting and to the other members follows. There is no offertory. Anyone can contribute toward the expenses of the Meeting as he or she wishes. There are about 250,000 Quakers on all contiments, over 100,000 being in the United States. There are only a few in Korea.
Question:
Are there world conferences of Quakers?
Answer:
Triennial meetings are held every three years. Representatives of Yearly Meetings participate as appointed representatives. There is no Korea Yearly Meeting because we are such a small group. I was invited as 'a Representative to the triennial held in Kenya in August 1982. I have been at a few others. Monthly Meetings belong-to a Yearly Meeting but the Yearly Meeting is not the final authority. Each Monthly Meeting has final responsibility for all decisions which come before it. The other Meetings are for coordination and consultation. There is the Friends World Committee for Consultation. The Seoul Meeting belongs to it. If we were to belong to a Yearly Meeting, it would be Japan Yearly Meeting but because of the historic relationship between Korea and Japan, it has seemed best that we be associated with the Friends World Committee with its offices in London, England.
Question:
Is there a Quaker missionary program in Korea? What about evangelism?
Answer:
Friends do nor ignore evangelism but we approach it differently. A Quaker Meeting for Worship is conducted on the basis of silence. All are welcome who wish to attend but wide publicity is not arranged for. Some people interpret this as indifference but that is not the intention.
Question:
Is the Bible the only textbook used for Bible study? Are there other publications used for the education of children?
Answer:
In the past children who were born or Quaker parents were called birthright Quakers. Most Quaker families today believe that the child should make that decision at the age of adulthood. Quakers are deeply concerned about their children's religious education. They attend Meeting from an early age. Since meditation is a difficult means of worship, the child remains in the Meeting for Worship for only a short time. Then they become high school age they are encouraged to join the religion of their choice. They may join the Society of Friends or they may choose another religious faith. Quakers respect the freedom of choice. Many publications are available about Quakerism and the history of the Quakers.
Question:
How well can Quaker activities be done without organization?
Answer:
One of the more attractive things about the Quaker movement is that it is a do-it-yourself religion. Members volunteer their time and talent to take care of Meeting responsibilities. Most responsibilities of the Monthly and Yearly Meeting are carried out by committees of volunteers.
Question:
I hear that Quakers place great emphasis on living simply and that they have carried on relief and rehabilitation work in many countries. Is this true?
Answer:
To live in the Truth is a basic guide in the life of a Quaker. During their early history, since they could not join the Church of England, they entered into many business ventures and because of their honesty became quite successful. In more recent times, they have not entered the field of business but have entered fields where they could be of service to their fellow human beings. The number of Quakers is small. Their living style is simple. While they have no creed or dogma, there are aspects of life which they attempt to follow. Some of these are: simple living, simple dress, plain speaking, working consistently for world peace and others.
During the early history of Quakerism, the Friends would not call the king by his customary title nor remove their hat in his presence. Thousands were in prison for such offenses and others. The Friends believed that it was only before God that they could remove their hats not before human beings.
Question:
You say that Quakers have led the movement fof the equality of men and women and for freedom of slaves in the United States. What are their interests now?
Answer:
They are very active in the anti-nuclear movement. We should be active in that movement too but I am too weak...
Question:
How are they active in the anti-nuclear movement? Do they stage demonstrations?
Answer:
There are many occasions on which they stage demonstrations. While they have staged or participated in many demonstrations, they haven't as yet had any significant effect. They don't seem to emphasize it strongly enough. As a matter of fact, others have been more active in this movement than the Quakers.
Question:
The anti-nuclear movement is being pursued in the cause of peace. Considering the present danger of total destruction because of nuclear war, I find that many people are disappointed with the effort to establish world peace in our day. The two super powers are in the midst of a terrible arms competition. Technological developments have caused dangerous hazards and the possible destruction of much of biological life. Do you believe that the existence of the human race is in danger?
Answer:
We have to do something about it. We must fight to reverse the trend. I hope the human race will listen to the voices calling for change. If not life on earth may be ruined for centuries to come. Only God knows what the Future may bring.
Question:
Do you think there is a possibility that the conflict between the United States and the Soviet Union nay be resolved by efforts such as these? Or do you think there should be a special effort made?
Answer:
There is no way but to have faith on the part of believers and be prepared to sacrifice our lives if necessary. Believing that God can show us the way, we should maintain a strong faith, one which can effect the consciousness of others. To be able to effect the consciousness of others, we must of necessary be prepared to sacrifice ourselves making our bodies a part of The effort. The peace makers catch phrase is "self-sacrifice." If it were not for self-sacrifice there would be no peace movement. It doesn't mean that everyone should sacrifice his or her life. If we pray and our efforts are still insufficient, God will help. What is important is not what we do but what God does through us. Laotse and Chuangtse said, "Life and death are not separated." We should be able to accept this in our own minds.
Question:
Some countries seem to be organizing peace movements. Don't you think it will be difficult to move from war preparation to genuine efforts to bring about peace?
Answer:
Certainly, it is hard. But, if we can appeal to reason, ways will open for us to transcend difficult problems. A Swiss, Pierre Ceresole, was a conscientious objector and a committed peace maker. He was afraid of nothing. Being in jail, he was released by paying a fine. When he was released, he started again to organize for peace. In Switzerland they had blackout practices for anti aircraft drill. Coming out into the street carrying a candle he said, "God told us to light the world, why do we make it dark? I'll make light." Pierre Ceresole was a deeply committed man. If we have such commitments a way will open. If a way opens the world may be saved from unbelievable catastrophe. Such was the situation with Christ Jesus. If there is not acceptance of martyrdom as a possibility, changes will not come. I believe this.
Question:
Was Gandhi, the Indian peace maker influenced by the Quakers?
Answer:
The Quakers understood Mahatma Gandhi best. While Gandhi stayed in England, he was in touch with the Quakers.
Question:
Approximately half of all Quakers live in the United States. What impact have they had there?
Answer:
The early Quakers in North America were involved in the movement for American Independence but just to 'what degree, I am not sure. Admiral William Penn, born to mobility, was deeply impressed by George Fox. Having been given a large tract of land by the King, he established the State of Pennsylvania. William Penn developed his political, ideals in accordance with what he felt to be God's will. Pennsylvania was called the "Holy Experiment" and it's capital, Philadelphia, became the center of Quakerism in the United States in colonial times. William Penn's statue stands on the top of the Philadelphia City Hall today. In other States, war and conflict developed with the native people, the Indians. Many lives were lost as a result. Only in the State of Pennsylvania was peace with the Indians maintained. As I said before, the Quakers helped liberate the slaves in the Southern, States. They helped them escape to the North.
Question:
Were you nominated by the Quakers for a Nobel Peace Prize a few years ago?
Answer:
Yes, but it was futile. They didn't know me well enough. They felt that I had done something important but they really didn't know me. I feel ashamed of it for I wasn't worthy of the honor.
Question:
Did the Quakers receive the Nobel Prize at one time?
Answer:
Question:
What is the formal organization of the Korean Quakers?
Answer:
It's the Seoul Monthly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). Quakers like to call each other "Friend." It's due to Jesus's comment about his disciples when he said, "I have called you friends".
Question:
There is a Quaker Meeting in Korea, isn't there?
Answer:
There is a small Meeting House behind Ewha University. It's so small that we have thought of moving to another place or rebuilding it.
Question:
I hear that you have often been to the Pusan Bible Meeting of Dr. Chang Ki Ryo. Is he interested in Quakerism?
Answer:
I join the Pusan Meeting once a month, the second Sunday of the Month. He is not a Quaker but a fine Christian, an enthusiastic Presbyterian. If all people in the world were as good as Dr. Chang, there would be no serious problems that could not be overcome. He is as innocent as a child and a wonderful human being.. If he were interested in money, he would do well. His total life has been lived as a service to others.
Question:
Have you been baptized as a Christian?
Answer:
Quakers place little emphasis on the Cross or on Baptism. When I was in Japan, I was baptized by Uchimura Kan Cho. He had many things in common with the Quakers. I came to know the Quakers then. I went to Quakes Meetings with Uchimura and Nitobe. Uchimura became a non-churchist and Nitobe a Quaker.
Question:
Teacher Ham, you have said that war is the most extreme luxury. I am sorry but I don't know what that statement means.
Answer:
Yes, I have recently made that statement. Expenditure for war and the preparation for war is the greatest single item of expenditure known to the Twentieth Century. I believe that most of that expense as been unnecessary and useless. War is the most extreme luxury known to human beings. Using scarce materials for luxurious living is one on the causes of war. In Capitalist countries where profit is the motive, expensive goods are produced rather than more essential goods because more profit is possible. In many instances, war has been waged mainly for political or economic power.
Question:
Our Churches have grown rapidly--nine million listed members in number. Can we call Korea a Christian country?
Answer:
What is religion? I'm ashamed of it as we know it today. The Japanese people have a better attitude. Of course, there are some Christians in Japan, who like to say, "I have the Holy Spirit" or "I can speak in tongues". The weakness of our people is apparent. We don't have the choice that some do. We are materialistic. I try to avoid owning more things.
Question:
Korean Christian Church membership is growing more rapidly than in any other country. With such rapid growth, isn't it natural to expect that at least sane deeply committed and dedicated people, "a precious remnant" will exist to contest and overcome the excesses of the majority of the membership?
Answer:
No, I don't think so. We should not expect such to happen for while there will always be a few who will be true to the central message of Christ Jesus, the burden will be too great. I have faith though, that as time passes there will be a change. From suffering, change can take place. If we experience hard and bitter times, we may be awakened to the real meaning of life. Most Koreans are unaware of the spiritual condition of our country.
Question:
You have criticized other religions in the past. Do you criticize them today?
Answer:
I haven't understood Catholicism. My main concern is liberty and freedom. I have had some disagreement with Catholicism. My thoughts have changed somewhat. I have only to be concerned about my faith. There is no purpose in saying that something is not "good." Catholic Churches now appear to be more sincere than Protestant churches. Few priests have deviated but many ministers have.
Question:
In my view one of the characteristics of Protestantism is its disruptive nature - especially fundamentalists who insist that they have the absolute truth. Since Quakers have no hierarchy and are often described as a liberal faith, do you think they face little danger of disruption?
Answer:
There have been divisions in the Quaker Church. One group, the unprogrammed believe in the least possible structure. Another branch employe pastors. Reconciliation has to some degree taken place. In Africa most of the Quaker churches have Ministers, in Kenya there are approximately 50,000 Quakers.
Question:
I have another problem. What difference is there between worship and meditation?
Answer:
Meditation is to empty your mind, Laotse says, "Empty your mind as much as possible. Empty it until you are unaware that you are emptying it." Such is meditation. Worship is to fill your mind. When they give the blessing in church, the piano is played. It makes me uncomfortable.
Question:
It's said that a Christian through repentance can renew himself and that a Buddhist can find truth through meditation. Is there a similarity between them?
Answer:
We hear that Christians receive the Holy Spirit through repentance. It is possible but I doubt that it is the Holy Spirit itself that they are experiencing. To receive the Holy Spirit, our ego will have to be overcome completely. That is not easy. Even though the elimination of ego is very difficult, we can make progress toward that goal if we genuinely try. We should make an effort even' day to simplify our lives and our minds. With patience and constant effort we can maize progress. It is difficult to explain in words but each will be able to feel the change within himself.
Question:
Is this your own religious pilgrimage? Which Church denomination did you belong to first?
Answer:
I used to be a Presbyterian, later a non-churchist and have now become a Quaker. Some have criticized me because I have changed three times. At first I was a simple Christian in a Presbyterian Church. Some uncertainty about the Presbyterian Church developed at the time of the March First Independence Movement. While in Japan I chose the Non-Church Movement.
Question:
You seem to be getting younger and younger. You make many speeches, don't you? Don't you feel tired?
Answer:
I haven't felt tired yet. If I have the strength to do something, why should I spare myself now? I want to go on making speeches as long as I possibly can. Some wonder if it is useful only to speak. Nehru, the Indian leader said, "I'm an actionist." But I'm not. I'm a thinker. It is a great loss to our country that we don't have anyone who has the leadership ability of a Gandhi. Frankly speaking, there is not a man of character in Korea who is respected for his ability and integrity by both young and old alike. Isn't it sad? A person with such leadership qualities doesn't happen by accident. A great leader develops because of his or her background, his experiences, the times in which he lives, his commitment to God, his joys and his suffering. How can we help our people realize the mistakes which have been inherited since the Yi Dynasty. Instead of admitting errors and mistakes, a major effort is made to isolate or eliminate those who desire change through different ideas and approaches. I have tried to be cautious in my lectures. Some people think I am to cautious. Our Government feels that it has to be right. They will not listen to me even when I speak critically of them. I do so when I think they are wrong. I feel so sad about it.
Question:
What do you think our future will be?
Answer:
As a man I believe in God. We should not be pessimistic. One of the great Christian truths is that of desire and hope. We must cherish unconditionally an optimistic future. Intellectually, I don't know what the world will be like in the future but I have tried through my faith to follow the right road and the righteous way. While we climb the mountain, we at times must descend in order to bc- able to climb the next mountain. Our problem is, how do we establish a strong and abiding faith in God. True power springs from the depths of our souls, it is not created by external forces. Too many assume that real power comes from outside sources. Young people are often Frustrated and confused because their opportunities to grow are blocked. We try to live the life of the Spirit. Unfortunately our churches stress happiness and living pleasantly as what is to be gained by church membership. What can be expected of the membership when such promises are held out to them? The spiritual strength that overcomes hard times, comes only from religious faith. The churches are at fault for they neither teach nor practice the Way, the Truth nor the Light. No excuses or apologies are acceptable. What we consciously do is not because of our courage but because of God.
Some think that their actions have nothing to do with their faith. Laotse and Chuangtse, however, in their writing long before the time of Christ, taught that faith and practice were dependent upon each other. Both stressed the futility of war and violence as instruments of national polity, recommending that peaceful solutions be found. Confucius and Mencius have little influence today. Westerners are growing more and more interested in Laotse and Chuangtse year by year. The older generation may be sorry to near this but I find it fascinating myself. If there is even one important truth in Oriental thought, it is our duty to dust it off and let people know about it. While at my age I can't do much about it, I am content if young people are enthusiastic about it. I once visited an American Theological Seminary. One of the professors believes that the study of Laotse and Chuangtse are essential to the study of theology. I was pleased to hear it. We used to hear that a grandfatherlv type figure sat on the throne of the Kingdom of Heaven. Today we believe that God has no form or name. As a result, it is difficult for man to comprehend God but the Cross in the life of Jesus is quite specific. The study of Laotse and Chuangtse provides us little that is so specific. Dr. Chang whom I spoke of before, once asked me to tell him about Laotse and Chuangtse. He was clearly worried about it .because I have often mentioned them to him. When I answered him and said, "I love both Laotse and Chuangtse, but it is Jesus Christ that I believe in. There is no God except his God." Dr. Chang wept at hearing my answer. I realized how much he has worried about it in his heart without speaking of it.
Question:
One of the present pernicious evils, the theory of the positive and the negative, has been often mentioned. The antagonism of the positive and the negative, white or black theory, and all or nothing should in some way be harmonized and overcome in the area of the intellect and the Spirit, shouldn't they?
Answer:
Yes, I dislike the white and black theory. Hahn Wan Sang believes that a white or black theory is necessary, when you consider the world as it is today. I understand his viewpoint but it is the poly dimensional world that I want to emphasize. What is the universal nature of the world? There are many kinds of flowers, myriad of plants and insects on the earth. If we understand only this, it is quite clear that the universe is a polv dimensional world. Teilhard de Chardin pointed out why it is a poly dimensional world. The fundamental principle of the universe is poly dimensional.
The fundamental principle of the universe is poly dimensional. The development of life is from a single cell but as a result of evolution, it his been poly dimensionalized. The function of consciousness developed gradually. Because of this, the nature of life has changed to what we have at present. Gradually scientists have studied these chances. If these changes were approached in one way we might come nearer than we do to understand a true religious faith. Ancient people personified God. Our period of history has tended to do likewise. in the future this cay change. We should think or the Spirit of God as impersonal as does Confucius with "yen," Laotse with "Tao," and Hinduism with "Brahman."
As our awareness becomes greater, thought may transcend the individual. It may be a phenomenon the character of which may be better understood. The result even though different than expected should not cause alarm nor should is be ignored, if significant results appear they should be given due importance. When Confucius spoke he was listened to. At the present we should be studying how we can become poly dimensional. It is God's desire and the aim of life.
Question:
Now that your monthly magazine, Voice of the People, has been cancelled, it must be difficult for you to make statements except through speech.
Answer:
I will have to make more speeches. The term si-anl (which means people) should be understood and used widely. It should be considered to be a new word. I want to inform people of this and have it recorded in the local language dictionary. I'm sorry that only a few thoughtful people know it. I like to use a fresh word that has not been polluted. I dislike hearing the word "people" or "populace." Si-anl and people have the same meaning but the feeling is different. As a new wind blows a fresh breeze, a new word for "people" would be helpful. It's true that new wine must be poured into new vine skins. "Love" isn't written "agape" in the Bible, is it? "Agape" has not been used before. Later it was used as a new word. Recently the tern "love" has been polluted. If we use "yen," "good" instead of "love," as the ancients did, it might be fine. When a new thought comes along, we should choose appropriate words to describe it. It is difficult to suddenly create a new word bus we should find a word or phrase that has a positive feeling with it.
Question:
Teacher Ham, you have always been fond of speaking in order to get your ideas across. Do you have special reasons for this?
Answer:
As for writing there is a unique Oriental style. It's not good for writing to be the only form of communication but writing is important. Each should have a specific style. Such style for the Orient is illustrated by Soh Tong Pah. Isaiah's Psalms provides another fine style. Such writings stir our feeling and move our lives. Poetic writing is most effective but not being a genius, I gave up tying to write poetry but I have tried to write as I think. Such has -been my writing style.
Question:
I hear you take only one meal a day.
Answer:
Yes, 1 have one meal at midday.
Question:
I hear that the owners of bookstores refused to display the book that was critical of you.
Answer:
Let then do as they like, it is up to them. As I believe in God. I think what happens is God's will. Who dares to oppose God's will? He will do what is right. I don't insist that I have no faults. I admit my faults but I am afraid that some very able and intelligent Korean people will be hurt bu some of the tactics that are being used today to prevent dissenting view-points from being expressed.
Question:
I have been impressed with your wide range of thoughts and your ideas about religious truth. In the final analysis, we should be able to meet one another whether we start from East or West. We should be able to accept our differences in a proper spirit. Truths can be exchanged. Those that are compatible can be integrated and incorporated into the various religions and into each Christian denomination. We can accomplish sore harmonization between religions and societies. The motive is to pursue unity through diversity. Finally, I would like to ask for a closing comment.
Answer:
Our thoughts should not be too narrow. As I told you, the laws of the universe and of life are poly dimensional. It should nor make a difference if we have different thoughts. No two people have the same face. Such is life. Why do people insist that my religion and my thoughts should be the same as theirs? If they do, their thoughts are too narrow. I'm deeply concerned about the present world situation. Not everyone but most are inactive and their spirit is not vigorous. Varieties of life and thought should grow.
* * * * *
The reporter, Han Yong San, was born in l940. Graduated from Theology Institute of Yeonsei University in 1967, the Yeonsei graduate school and from one of the U.S. ecumenical institutes. He used to be a member of the editorial staff of the monthly Christian Thought, as Assistant Chief of the Political Department of C.B.C. and Assistant Editor of Church Union Times. His address is 522-307 Chamsil 5 Dong, Gangdong-Ku, Seoul. Korea
Approval: granted
Translated by Kwahk Young-Do and assisted by C. Lloyd Bailey
"Meditation at Pendle Hill - Dialogue" by Ham Sok-Hon
