Ham Sok Hon – an Interview
by Margaret Bacon
Friends Journal
December 1, 1979

Born in the North of Korea in 1901, Ham Sok Hon has spent his life in struggles for human rights,. first against the Japanese rulers of Korea, then against the Russians, and most recently against repressive aspects of the Park regime. He has been in and out of jail many times, calling prisons "the university of life. " Aside from ten years spent teaching, and a few years of farming, the resistance movement has been his life work, coupled with a deep search for the religious meaning of life, and a radiant outreach to his fellow human beings. Since 1962, Ham Sok Hon has been a member of the Religious Society of Friends. He is currently visiting the United States for the fourth time as a guest of the Friends World Committee for Consultation. Recently Ham was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the American Friends Service Committee. His commitment to nonviolence has earned him the name of the Gandhi of Korea. 

Although Teacher Ham understands and speaks English, he is more comfortable using an interpreter. Playing this role in the interview for the Journal was Chin Young Sang, clerk of Seoul Friends Meeting, who is accompanying Teacher Ham. Ham listened intently to the translation, and frequently broke in to interject his own interpretation. This three-way conversation led to some occasional misunderstandings and diversions, but the essence is transcribed here much as it occurred. 

Margaret: Teacher Ham, you said in your pamphlet, Kicked By God, that you believe in the progress of the human race. Yet this morning at the American Friends Service Committee staff meeting, you warned us that if we are to be the servants of the people we must be prepared to clean up more messes--more "dirty things" you said--produced by the disintegration of society. Does this mean you have lost hope?

Ham: I think that civilization at present is going in a wrong direction and producing a "dirty" society and war. If human beings seek only for happiness, quite naturally the remnant will be dirty. 

Margaret: Where must we head?

  Ham: If human beings seek the meaning of life, in the process of seeking, happiness will naturally come. If you do manual work, physical fitness quite naturally comes; likewise, if you seek the meaning of life, happiness quite naturally comes to us.

Human beings create the machine in order to get efficiency and some profit. We can divide people into two kinds, those who use the machine to get some leisure time, and people who do not use the machine and are in a sense exploited because they have no time to seek the meaning of life. Both of these groups of people have lost happiness in the process. 

I very often criticize this civilization for its emphasis on recreation and amusement. 

Margaret: How can we help the exploiters? 

Ham: The human being should give up big-scale business. It may be a dream, but I believe he must give it up. 

Margaret: Are there other obstacles to the human being's search for truth? What about institutions, government, church or schools that prohibit freedom of thought? 

Ham: True happiness and truth come from within, not without. If you have some good things inside, you can see good even in the bad things and use the good things in good ways.

  In that sense Lao-tse is quite right! True happiness and true joy is without joy. 

Margaret: Once we are ourselves liberated, how can we help our neighbors? 

Ham: In order to liberate our neighbors we must liberate ourselves first. The person who is liberated from self is autonomous, and experiences joy. When one has found one's own truth [Ham himself interjected]-atman-one becomes one with God. Jesus was the son of God, or should I say the person of God?

  Margaret: Once we have achieved self-liberation, can we use the methods of nonviolence to work for justice for our neighbors who do not yet accept nonviolence? Is it still possible for us to work together? 

Ham: It is not only possible but perhaps inevitable. I cannot take the weapon from his hand. George Fox said to William Penn, "Wear your sword as long as you can." 

I think we should keep to the principle of nonviolence but not leave the people who are struggling. We should try to keep with them and to educate them. In the struggle there are several degrees or states-the best one, the second best one, the third best one. If you feel that it is impossible to follow the best one you should choose the second best or the third one. Just to keep silent and remain unmoved is much worse than to choose the second or even third state. 

If you find a social evil, and you find you cannot overcome it with nonviolence, you should resist. Using violence to resist the social evil is better than just keeping the silence and doing nothing. Still, we must always urge the people to use the best method.

Margaret: How can we convert people to nonviolence? 

Ham: Saying it with the mouth is not enough. The person who insists on nonviolence should demonstrate it and show with their action that they are ready to sacrifice themselves.  

Margaret: Do you feel that the struggle for human rights in Korea today is nonviolent? 

Ham: The human rights groups do not insist that they should use violence, but they insist that a limited use of violence is sometimes necessary. I feel very sorry that I cannot lead them in the nonviolent way. 

Margaret: But is it true that they use nonviolent means? Sit-ins and prayer sessions and peaceful demonstrations? 

Ham: It is a very difficult position for me, because they do not truly believe in nonviolence. 

Margaret: One aspect of nonviolence is to try to change the heart of the oppressor. Do you feel you have had experiences that support this? 

Ham: To some degree, yes, I have experienced it, and I have a very strong conviction that if I really try to keep to nonviolence and overcome evil with love I can change the heart of the evildoer. 

On November 25, 1945, I was arrested by Russian soldiers because they thought that I supported the student demonstrations against the Russian troops. Many guns were aimed at my heart and my body. I myself felt puzzled because I felt very comfortable and had no sense of physical fear, very peaceful, in fact. If I had used violence at that time with the soldiers I might have been killed, but I had a very peaceful attitude--no cowardice and no fears--and they suddenly left me alone, took the guns away from my body. This is my small experience of a nonviolent attitude. I think at the time I had no strong conviction. I think I became peaceful in that situation because of my Christian beliefs. 

Margaret: This experience has been described in the lives of other Quakers. But to return to the discussion, you often say that if there is a social evil we must resist it by the best way possible, but that we must resist it. Why is it our duty to resist it? 

Ham: We should never surrender to evil.

Margaret: Why is that? 

Ham: (himself) There is no Why!

Margaret: Suppose we feel we are a very small part of a far-away evil. For instance, suppose I know that the clothes I buy are being made by women in Korea who do not get paid enough. What must I do?

Ham: (looking alarmed) If you feel you are doing wrong things, you should act immediately for the right. If you delay, if you trample on your conscience, it will become weaker. However small the thing, do not trample on your conscience! 

Margaret: Is there something that we can do about the multinational corporations which are exploiting these women?

Ham: Handiwork is better. Maybe it is not possible to get rid entirely of the machine. But you can follow the principle, try to live a simple life. 

Margaret: Are there other things we can do to help in the human rights struggle in Korea? 

Ham: The only way is sharing the burden. The burden is for all human beings. Good is not personal. Evil is not personal. The whole of goodness should be mobilized to overcome the small part of evil.

Margaret: Do you mean the churches and the nations should act?

Ham: I myself should be selfless. Most people will be moved if they see the action of a person who is purely selfless. The people who depend on force of arms neglect the potential eternal power in themselves and in others. Selflessness cannot move all human beings. Even Jesus had a Judas. But in most cases we can move the people's hearts if one is selfless.  

The persons involved in the human rights struggle in Korea are trying to remove the evildoers, the outward evildoers, but they are not trying to mobilize the potential of the great force that comes from the persons who will follow their spiritual life, or Light. 

Since the olden times, the great leader is the person who can mobilize the force of the common people. These leaders do not gain their power from talking; their power comes from the conscience of the common people. The mobilization comes from the pure heart of great persons. 

Margaret: Cannot the people be mobilized by evil leaders? Mobilized for nationalism or war?

Ham: Even the evildoers can mobilize the people with a lip-service appeal to the common people, but they cannot last long. The evildoers are profit-oriented, benefit- oriented. They disguise their minds to make it appear they have a pure conscience.  

Margaret: Are you saying that because there is that of God in every person, there is a force in the common people that resists evil?

Ham: The peacemakers believe that every person has that of God in every heart. The politicians believe that every person has evil in his heart. That is the difference between peacemakers and politicians.

 Margaret: You have said that we must love our enemy...

Ham: Of course, ideologically, we cannot sacrifice even one person. Margaret: Is this very hard to teach people to understand?

Ham: Of course it is difficult. We should not hurry. It takes a long time. The reason I like Quakers very much, they can wait. Some time ago a very young student criticized me, saying why must we be in a hurry? Why can't we wait? At that time many students were suffering in jail and I was becoming impatient, losing my conviction about nonviolence. Nowadays I have a very strong conviction that without nonviolence we cannot succeed. They may criticize me, it is all right. I don't mind. With hurriedness we cannot have any result. No true good… 

Margaret: What hope is there for the human rights struggle in Korea today?

Ham: The hope is to mobilize the conscience of the common people. I am sorry I cannot do it. I can only do what I can do. The future is dim, but I do not despair. I learn from the Bhagavad Gita: do not become attached to the fruits of your action. The will to hurry up comes from the attachment to those fruits. The so-called revolutionaries kill many people in the name of happiness for all the people. The greatest good for the greatest number. That comes from attachment to the fruits of action. When we are liberated from this attachment, then spiritual force will come. 

Margaret: It is like a riddle then: when we give up trying it will happen? We know that there are many Christians in the struggle for human rights in Korea. Are they liberated? Or attached to the fruits of their actions? 

Ham: Very few are liberated. 

Margaret: What advice do you have for the AFSC and for Quakers? How must we continue to resist evil?

Ham: You have already started the good work of cleaning up the “dirty” world. You must continue to clean, and clean very well.  

 Margaret Bacon is a special writer for the AFSC and author of four books and many short stories and articles. A Quaker historian and active feminist, she is a member of Central Philadelphia (PA) Meeting. She has three grandchildren. and is interested in birding, nature study. and sailing.

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